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bocorvin
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MessagePosté le: 14/01/2021 15:37    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Merci Sebastian, excuse, je continue en Anglais,
I have to make all the ply joints very, very carefully, they have to take all the strain. The advantage is that the tail"boom" becomes lighter, so much less ballast. Now the whole glider becomes lighter and hopefully there will be less chance on damage with bad landings. I have to wait and see........
I think that Etori Bugatti said ; "Si ca casse, fait le plus legere". I am not sure if he said that, but I like the way of thinking.

Vincent (DB)
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sebastian92
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MessagePosté le: 14/01/2021 15:46    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Yes Vincent, you're right !
more weight = more inertia = more breakage… build light as possible ! good currency Wink



Pourvu que ça vole, roule, flotte ! normalement j'ai tout bien fait pour…
Un bel avion est un avion qui vole bien ! Marcel Dassault
…………
Sebastian

Vends module émission 2.4 ghz pour Futaba, Hitec TZ-FM + 2 récepteurs corona 8 voies (contact en MP)
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VincentB
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MessagePosté le: 14/01/2021 16:55    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Il y a quand même un autre paramètre à prendre en compte, quand on atterri dur, ce qui arrive souvent, surtout à la pente, si on compare la même chose avec un grandeur il exploserait sans laisser aucune chance au pilote Laughing nous ça se solde par quelques réparations et c'est reparti.
N'empêche que si on devait garder toutes les proportions de section des grandeurs, ok c'est super beau, mais ce serait quand même fragile, et de toute façon, être trop léger ne permettrait pas de voler quand il y a un peu de vent, donc les compromis que l'on utilise sont pas si mauvais que ça. Après c'est vrai que plus c'est fin, plus c'est joli, et aussi, difficile à travailler.



Retroplane et modélisme en pause, vanlife à haute dose.
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bocorvin
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MessagePosté le: 14/01/2021 19:01    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

You are right Vincent, hopefully I made it just strong enough.
Time will learn and I hope for the best!

Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 23/01/2021 13:33    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonjour a tous,
Before continuing with the cockpit, the remarks of Vincent BecanconI got me thinking about the size of the stringers in the fuselage. They have about the same (scale) size as the example, but my landings are a bit rougher than the real ones. On the other hand, a light tail boom provides much less ballast and so on. I decided to put a single glass roving with epoxy on the inside of the left and right stringer, the stiffness of glass is closer to that of wood than that of carbon. I hope it works out well.I drilled 2mm holes next to the beam and with a double folded 0.2mm steel wire I pulled the dry roving wire through the holes and impregnated it with epoxy.




Just like the tool to pull a wire through the needle. Very Happy

After curing, the girders feel much stiffer and not much weight is added. To get the cockpit right I first fitted the pilot (borrowed from my Gull) and after some fiddling he was neatly in place . Made a backrest, seat and floor from plywood / balsa sandwich, they are fixed with screws in plywood supports,







Enough space over the servos.


The planned receiver battery box had a conflict with the pilot's feet, so I changed it and now the pilot has room for his feet and there is space for a 2s 1700Mah LiFe and 4s 2000Mah eneloop, they will be connected with a Schottky diode. If all goes well I can read the voltage on my transmitter.




Now I could start making the cockpit canopy. In that period it was not possible to make a bubble canopy's, so this canopy is made of curved panels, nice characteristic, beautiful (thanks to Thomas for the photo).



To make the supporting structure I laminated three frames.


and glued them together on the fuselage .



The canopy is secured at the front two pins (yellow arrow) and in the back with strong magnets, both in the hood as in the fuselage. The magnets are glued between layers 0.6 triplex (Black arrow).


From 0.6mm plywood I laminated the longerons?



. The canopy was quite a time consuming job, but now the frame is ready for varnishing and glazing.



Vincent (DB)
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sebastian92
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MessagePosté le: 23/01/2021 14:02    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello Vincent,
great work and clever ideas [good]
you speed to build !



Pourvu que ça vole, roule, flotte ! normalement j'ai tout bien fait pour…
Un bel avion est un avion qui vole bien ! Marcel Dassault
…………
Sebastian

Vends module émission 2.4 ghz pour Futaba, Hitec TZ-FM + 2 récepteurs corona 8 voies (contact en MP)
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MessagePosté le: 23/01/2021 14:13    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hi Vincent,

What a beautiful work [clap] [clap] !
The canopy is magnificent [amen] [amen] [amen] !



Serge
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MessagePosté le: 23/01/2021 14:14    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Thanks Sebastian, about the idea's; I can't stop thinking...... Laughing

Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 23/01/2021 15:04    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

So continue !
what kind of servos do you use ? they seems smaller… are there strong enough ?



Pourvu que ça vole, roule, flotte ! normalement j'ai tout bien fait pour…
Un bel avion est un avion qui vole bien ! Marcel Dassault
…………
Sebastian

Vends module émission 2.4 ghz pour Futaba, Hitec TZ-FM + 2 récepteurs corona 8 voies (contact en MP)
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MessagePosté le: 23/01/2021 15:13    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Sed, thanks for your nice remarks Very Happy

Sebastian, the servo's are Corona ([chut]) from HK, type CS238MG, double ball bearing, analog, 4kg.cm
The weight of the plane is also about 4kg, so I think they are Ok. Dimensions 29x13x30mm.They are quiet and have lots of favourable comments. I Have thew same type for the wings, the only difference is the housing. Dimensions of the wing servo is 29x10x34.5

Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 23/01/2021 17:57    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

« bocorvin » a écrit:
I decided to put a single glass roving with epoxy on the inside of the left and right stringer, the stiffness of glass is closer to that of wood than that of carbon. I hope it works out well. (DB)


Hello DB,

Not sure about that. Read page 6
http://acversailles.free.fr/documentation/08~Documentation_Generale_M_.....ois_carbone.pdf

Regards ,
Mainsd'or



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MessagePosté le: 23/01/2021 18:54    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello Mainsd'or,

Thanks very much for your input Very Happy .
To begin with, I have no theoretical education in this field, only the things I have learned myself and a lot of experience with wood and fibres.
From the (interesting) study you send me (in French,which is a foreign language for me) I found the E-modus of glass is about 5 times higher than wood, it means its 5 times "stiffer". Carbon has an E- modus about 13 times higher than wood.
So, in theory, the glass would take all the load till it breaks and the the wood should take all the load.
In full size small experimental sailing boats I reinforced some high loaded wooden parts with UD glass and had no ruptures or breakages in those parts. (I had other problems Laughing ).
Maybe you are right, time will learn and I hope it stays in one piece!

Vincent (DB)
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mainsd'or
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MessagePosté le: 24/01/2021 09:58    Sujet du message: King Kite 1/4 Répondre en citant

« bocorvin » a écrit:

So, in theory, the glass would take all the load till it breaks and the the wood should take all the load.
Vincent (DB)


Hello DB,
In practice, it's the opposite.
Wood A 0.7% and Carbon A 1.3% work together 53.8% A

Wood A 0.7% and Glass A 2.1% work together 33% A

So, in your case, with enough wood, no breakage of the wood and glass that does not work 66% A is useless.
If not enough wood, the wood breaks and the glass takes all the load.
Regards ,
Mainsd'or



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MessagePosté le: 24/01/2021 15:51    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello Mainsd'or,

Thank you for the your well thouight out answer, I am not sure if I understand it all, sorry.
Maybe you can have a look at the fuselage,



The sketch represents about 1/4 of the side of the tailboom. The wood surface is; (from the ply taken only the innner and outer layer, parallel to the grain) 2/3 x 0.6mm x 90mm= 36mm2
the spruce stringer;
3mmx6mm= 36 mm2, total 54mm2
the glass is 2.4mmx .7mm= 1.7mm2.
I just estimate what I did, maybe you can tell me if I have to add more glass, or that it is in proportion

Regards,

Vincent(DB)
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sebastian92
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MessagePosté le: 24/01/2021 16:39    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonjour,
merci mainsd'or pour le partage de ces documents !
in my opinion, sincerely, if you double the section of wooden stick… it will be quite rigid enough for… without complicated practice fiberglass.
The bending will make too the rigidity, well bonded in pressure.
Anyway, in case of a strong landing ... it will break the same Wink



Pourvu que ça vole, roule, flotte ! normalement j'ai tout bien fait pour…
Un bel avion est un avion qui vole bien ! Marcel Dassault
…………
Sebastian

Vends module émission 2.4 ghz pour Futaba, Hitec TZ-FM + 2 récepteurs corona 8 voies (contact en MP)
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MessagePosté le: 24/01/2021 19:01    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

« sebastian92 » a écrit:

in my opinion, sincerely, if you double the section of wooden stick… it will be quite rigid enough for…

Hi all,

I agree.

Up to you DB.

Regards ,
Mainsd'or



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MessagePosté le: 24/01/2021 19:24    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello All,

Thanks for the reactions, it keeps me learning Very Happy.
I ll leave it like this and I will try to land gently MDR

Now I go on with the cabin of the King Kite.

Regards,

Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 30/01/2021 13:38    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello everyone,

Before I was able to sheet the fuselage with ply, I had to do some preparatory work; the topside of the fuselage ahead of the cockpit will be sheeted with narrow strips (like the real one) so I had to fill it with thick balsa



and sand it smooth

I built the nose itself from 20mm balsa, sanded the side view first, then the top view

and then roughly into shape

I hollowed out the inside further (I had already partially done the gluing of the balsa together) and glued a plastic jar in it. That jar can hold 170 grams of lead.

What I'm planning is this; when the plane is ready I put the 170gr lead in the jar, I measure how much ballast is needed and then fill the nose with lead snippets and epoxy resin. Then I have the option of removing ballast without cutting it out.
I glued in plywood reinforcements for the rear of the wing mount and 10mm balsa at the bottom of the fuselage where you grab it when you handtoss it.


Now I could sheet the fuselage with 0.6mm plywood. Until now I glued the plywood with thick cyano, but this time I wanted to try the white glue and iron technique. This is done as follows, you smear both adhesive surfaces with PVA and let it dry. Then you put it together and press it together with a hot iron, the glue becomes soft due to the heat, and it is fixed. I had already made a few test pieces and it turned out to work.
Because the fuselage at this stage is still very flexible I put it back in the construction frame. I started with a tricky piece, first chamfer the edges with this set-up

then smear the glue surface with PVA and let it dry

. I could now place the piece exactly in place, fix it with clamps and iron it on

To be sure, I later applied extra glue on the inside, you never know, this technique is new for me.....

Vincent(DB)
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Sed
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MessagePosté le: 30/01/2021 14:59    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello Vincent,
Good job and very nice, your tricky piece [clap] [clap] ! This iron technique is very interesting [good] .
A little question : the nose will also be sheet with 0.6mm plywood ? I ask myself a lot of questions about this for the Pavelek P-2 [humm] ...



Serge
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MessagePosté le: 30/01/2021 15:54    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello Serge,

Thanks for your nice comments and yes its an interesting technique, I am still a bit afraid if its strong enough.....
About the nose, I will use veneer, thats 0.6mm wood, no layers, so sanding does not show Very Happy . Its on my Nemere 1/6 http://www.retroplane.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4645&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 and also my Gull 1/4.


The restauration of the nose of a real Petrel (almost identical nose as the Gull) took a year......

Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 05/02/2021 13:45    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonjour a tous,

After that tricky first piece of sheeting, I went on with the top of the fuselage, which was still temporarily attached to the building jig. Scarfing the thin plywood is a time-consuming job, especially if the panels are not straight. I made up a few sanding tools in the hope that I would make fewer mistakes



By the way, the self-adhesive sandpaper “easy-touch” is really great
A little more about this glue technique, I found info on Retroplane and also on SSUK.
After sanding and fitting, apply glue to



and let it dry until it is no longer white. After drying I have repeated the process to get more glue thickness. The fit with the scarfed joints, which are also curved, is critical and I don't know if I can work accurately enough. Another problem was that the horizontal (longitudinal) seam was difficult to straighten, I found it difficult to get each panel exactly in place. I temporarily fixed with it clamps

and glued it with a iron (middle position, 150gr). I decided to make the remaining panels a bit too long and later sand them to the correct length, with another sanding tool





On the same picture the connection horizontal stabiler / fin is done . A picture of the top of the fuselage,




The fuselage is now stiff enough to remove it from the building jig.


Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 05/02/2021 16:50    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonjour Vincent,

Superbe ce fuselage, du très beau travail [clap] [clap] [clap] !
Je ferai peut-être un essai avec cette méthode de collage au fer, ça a l'air de bien fonctionner [good] .

Bonne continuation.



Serge
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MessagePosté le: 05/02/2021 18:27    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Bonjour Sed,

Thanks for your nice comments Very Happy Very Happy
About the glueing technique; I find it hard to believe that it is as strong as thick cyano, but hopefully I am wrong!
After the panels are fixed, I put thick cyano on the inside, just to be sure. The glueing itself is much less hectic and that a big plus!

Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 05/02/2021 19:24    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

nice job , Vince Very Happy
Pat'



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MessagePosté le: 09/02/2021 19:21    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

« bocorvin » a écrit:
Bonjour Sed,

Thanks for your nice comments Very Happy Very Happy
About the glueing technique; I find it hard to believe that it is as strong as thick cyano, but hopefully I am wrong!
After the panels are fixed, I put thick cyano on the inside, just to be sure. The glueing itself is much less hectic and that a big plus!

Vincent (DB)


Hello Vincent,

Your work looks really fine I like it [clap] For those like me (and Sed may be) who never practiced the "iron glueing" (even if I was aware such process works) could you explain which kind of glue you use? wood glue "vinylique" ?



Sylvain.

On appelle idées claires celles qui sont au même degré de confusion que les siennes.
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MessagePosté le: 09/02/2021 20:32    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hi Pat' Very Happy Very Happy

Hi Texier,

I used an English tutorial, very informative.

http://www.ghostsquadron.co.uk/construction_vids_and_tips.html

and Pierre Delrieu used it on his Vizzola in 2016;

http://www.retroplane.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4656&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

Hope you have enough info Very Happy

Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 10/02/2021 10:37    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hi Texier,

about the glue; I use ordinary PVA, I think that is the cheap white woodglue, indeed vinelique. In the tutorial he says at a certain moment that the heat activates the glue, so don't let it dry completely.


Bonjour a tous,


After the fuselage was detached from the construction setup, I decided to do the rc part first. It's tempting to continue building, but now everything is much more accessible. I had already more or less made the servo tray and the battery box. To be able to get the latter one out easily I made a kind of clip from 2 layers of 0.6 plywood and a short piece of spruce, which you can unlock with one finger

. Next to the switch I placed the shottky diode, made two plugs for both receiver batteries and plugs for the lead to the receiver placed more to the rear of the fuselage.

. I ran this wire between the inner and (not yet in place) outer skin

. Behind the backrest of the pilot I made an “holder” for the receiver, antennas and space for the vario



I had already made the servo tray, I had to glue 2mm extra strips under the rudder servo to make enough vertical space between the actuation cables and rods.
The elevator actuation works with a 1mm steel wire pull / push rod, in a double plastic guide



To be able to mount and dismount the horizontal stabiler, I made the last 70mm of this rod hinged. I bent a very small eye in the 1mm rod, in which the pin of the quicklink fitted tightly. Just bend a slightly too big eye and carefully make it smaller with pliers until it fits exactly.



I can lift that moveble part and then attach the other quicklink to the rudderhorn of the elevator. Then the whole stabiler can be lowered in place and the moveble part of the actuation rod comes “in line” and operates without any slop.
The rudder is operated with two pull / pull cables (20kg strong). They are attached to the rudderhorns of the rudder with self-locking steel wire hooks, so that the rudder can easily be disassembled for transport





The controls are moving nicely, now I can go on sheeting the fuselage


Vincent (DB)
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MessagePosté le: 11/02/2021 11:23    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Dear Vincent,

Congratulations for your "every day" new construction solution.
This time the connection with your horizontal stabiliser. Simple and easy!

Congratulation for your idea to hidden, in the cockpit, the electrical wiring between 2 panels. They are defintively glued?

I am waiting for your next building solution.

Best regards.
Harold
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MessagePosté le: 11/02/2021 13:22    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Dear Harold,

Glad you liked the idea of the horizontal stabilizer:D Very Happy .
I had no intention glueing the wire between the in and outside of the nose of the fuselage. I can put the surplus of wire just in that space, always nice when a connector is broken or someting like that.

Best regards,

Vincent
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sebastian92
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Inscrit le: 01 Sep 2015
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Localisation: Hauts de seine
Âge: 60 Scorpion

MessagePosté le: 11/02/2021 17:35    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello Vincent,
always you have interesting solutions [clap]
a question : where do you find this so longers parts ?



I coud do it by myself… but if it's not too expensive…
you have an address ?
Continue like this Very Happy



Pourvu que ça vole, roule, flotte ! normalement j'ai tout bien fait pour…
Un bel avion est un avion qui vole bien ! Marcel Dassault
…………
Sebastian

Vends module émission 2.4 ghz pour Futaba, Hitec TZ-FM + 2 récepteurs corona 8 voies (contact en MP)
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